It was a great experience and there were moments when I just couldnt believe to what nadir Congress as a party has touched.
And dont miss the mention of Ryan Gandhi, from Karan, he is really the big daddy of all!!!
Here is the full coverage of this show from the Show!!!
Congress party’s spokesman and Union Minister Kapil Sibal explains his party’s reaction on the outcome of Uttar Pradesh Assembly elections in an exclusive interview to Karan Thapar on Devil’s Advocate.
Karan Thapar: Mr Sibal, despite Rahul Gandhi’s extensive campaigning in Uttar Pradesh, the party lost three seats (from its kitty in 2002) and your vote share came down to 8.24 per cent. Can you concede that this is a disappointing outcome?
Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. It is a disappointing outcome. The only sense of solace is that whereas other parties have lost their vote bank substantially, at least we have maintained our vote bank.
Karan Thapar: Well, you didn’t have very much to maintain. It was 8.96 earlier and now it’s around 8.24 per cent.
Kapil Sibal: It is about the same. We started this election with 16 seats.
Karan Thapar: I thought it was 25.
Kapil Sibal: You are talking about the 2002.
Karan Thapar: But that’s the only fair comparison.
Kapil Sibal: No, not really. Nine of them left us. We started these polls with only 16 MLAs and we have got 22. It’s no solace for us, but I’m only saying that whereas the BJP has come down substantially, lost 50 odd seats, Samjawadi Party has lost 100 odd seats. We are still better.
Karan Thapar: You seem determined to find a silver lining to the dark cloud?
Kapil Sibal: No, it’s not so. I am disappointed.
Karan Thapar: All right then. Let us explore the disappointment. The truth of the matter is that in 2002, you won 25 seats and this time you have won 12 per cent less. In 2002, you had an 8.96 vote share, this time it has fallen by six per cent. What went wrong?
Kapil Sibal: Nothing went wrong. What went right for Mayawati is the question? Everything went right for her. She put up about 93 candidates in the reserved constituencies and she won 61.
Karan Thapar: Let’s not talk about what went right for Mayawati. Congress was fighting to do better, to improve your vote share, to win more seats. What went wrong?
Kapil Sibal: I told you. What went wrong with us is what went right for Maya. Namely, the vote-bank politics, Dalit politics with strategic alliances with Muslims, Brahmins and Scheduled Castes has worked for her.
Karan Thapar: Are you saying there is nothing that you could have done which would have improved your prospects and performance which you did not do? Were there no lapses at all?
Kapil Sibal: If you ask me, supposing where it all started in UP two years ago, we had people on the ground, which we did not have this time.
Karan Thapar: So you should’ve started earlier?
Kapil Sibal: Absolutely, there is no doubt about it.
Karan Thapar: Why didn’t you?
Kapil Sibal: I cannot answer that question. You know I was called to the election pretty late.
Karan Thapar: If you conceive that you should have started earlier, does this means that the managers who are responsible failed the target deadline?
Kapil Sibal: I’m not in a position nor do I wish to criticise. I’m being open and I’m saying, supposing we had more people on the ground, since we have been out of power for 17 years, it is difficult to build a base. All our workers since 1996 have actually moved away.
Karan Thapar: So you are saying three important things: You should have started earlier, you should have done more to build a base and you should have done so with more dedication.
Kapil Sibal: Absolutely, there is no doubt about it.
Karan Thapar: I take it that the lapses in all three areas lies with the UPCC president.
Kapil Sibal: No, this is not the issue. We are analysing an election result. We knew from the beginning that with an eight-nine per cent vote base, we are not going to get it to 30 per cent. We are a national party, so we don’t rely on caste. We thought we will give people an agenda. Our foremost objective was to remove Mulayam Singh Yadav and we have been able to do that.
Karan Thapar: You have not been able to do it, Mayawati has done that.
Kapil Sibal: Our attack helped the process as well.
Karan Thapar: Only marginally.
Kapil Sibal: That’s a matter of analysis.
Karan Thapar: Let us look at the facts. Rahul Gandhi chose the candidates personally, and led the campaign personally from the front. What share of the responsibility for not getting a better result falls on him?
Kapil Sibal: Like I said, this is not an anti-Congress, anti-BJP vote, it is an anti-Mulayam and pro-BSP vote. I am not here to tell you who’s responsible for what. I’m only telling you the ground reality. With the kind of response Rahul’s roadshows got, we are happy that we are building a base for the 2009 elections.
Karan Thapar: That is your interpretation, but UPCC President Salman Khurshid went on record to say that Rahul Gandhi came to UP to build the Congress. What is the outcome? The Congress tally of seats falls by 12 per cent, the vote share falls by six per cent. He has shrouded the Congress.
Kapil Sibal: Incidentally, Rome cannot be conquered in a day and you know that.
Karan Thapar: But you are losing ground and hardly advancing.
Kapil Sibal: It is hardly losing ground. We have not lost 12 per cent, that is factually incorrect.
Karan Thapar: Your vote share has also fallen by six per cent.
Kapil Sibal: That’s not a clear figure yet. In fact on several television channels, it’s said as far as Congress is concerned it has lost not any vote share.
Karan Thapar: The Times of India said on Saturday morning that it was 8.42 per cent compared to 8.96 per cent.
Kapil Sibal: The Times of India is not the gospel truth in this country.
Karan Thapar: Let us look at it like this. Given Rahul Gandhi came to build the Congress, but has instead shrunk it, is it because he failed to get support of the leadership in the UP Congress? After all, Salman Khurshid could not even get his wife elected.
Kapil Sibal: The proposition that Rahul came to build the party and lost is not true. We are the only party who has managed to maintain its vote share and seats. If you look at the BJP, they are now 17-18 per cent low on vote share. They have gone down from 106 to 50.
Karan Thapar: That’s because they had that much vote share to lose. But six per cent is terrible.
Kapil Sibal: I don’t agree with that figure, I’m sorry.
Karan Thapar: Let me explore with you the explanations you gave generously with what went wrong. Satyavat Chaturvedi, the General Secretary of the Congress Party, says was the Congress organisation. How badly lacking was your organisation?
Kapil Sibal: Remember what Rahul said when he entered the elections, “I’m here for the long haul.” So he knew that there were no miracles to be had in these elections. We ourselves knew that among the candidates we had put up, we were only in contention in some of the constituencies. And we were working hard in those constituencies.
Karan Thapar: Your fellow party colleagues, including ministers and other people like Salman Khurshid, claimed that they could get up to 40 or even 50 seats. So that was just vain boasting?
Kapil Sibal: No, your channels were boasting in a silly fashion.
Karan Thapar: Congressmen on those channels were endorsing it.
Kapil Sibal: What were the exit polls saying? So for somebody to say he expects 40 seats, there is nothing wrong, it is his perception. It went wrong. The exit polls of all your channels went wrong. So why blame Salman Khurshid for that?
Karan Thapar: As you say, you knew you were not going to get too many seats. As you said, to move from 8 per cent to 30 per cent was close to impossible. Given that you already knew this, was it wise to have fielded Rahul?
Kapil Sibal: Absolutely. Rahul is here to stay and he will lead the party in the next election.
Karan Thapar: In UP or the nation?
Kapil Sibal: I cannot say that. He has himself spoken about UP. It is something Rahul will decide.
Karan Thapar: He will decide?
Kapil Sibal: Of course, he has to decide whether he wants to concentrate in UP or go further?
Karan Thapar: This is not a decision his mother takes?
Kapil Sibal: This is a decision his mother takes in consultation with Rahul and vice versa. When I say Rahul, I mean the Congress party. He is part of it.
Karan Thapar:Rahul and Congress are synonymous?
Kapil Sibal: He is part of the Congress.
Karan Thapar: Before the UP elections, everyone said Rahul was a vote winner for the Congress. Has that image been damaged?
Kapil Sibal: Not at all. Rahul is a vote winner, will be one and will be the mascot of the party.
Karan Thapar: Before the UP elections, people said Rahul could be the miracle man who could win the 2009 elections for the party. Has that hope been damaged?
Kapil Sibal: I don’t think so. He is the miracle man for the party.
Karan Thapar: His image has not been dented at all?
Kapil Sibal: No. I’ll tell you why. It is because his sincerity, honesty, credentials and sense of purpose are all intact.
Karan Thapar: But has not his ability to deliver been badly dented?
Kapil Sibal: That has nothing to do with him. He is not on his own.
Karan Thapar: So Rahul is okay, but Congress went wrong?
Kapil Sibal: Always.
Karan Thapar: Kapil Sibal, let’s turn to Rahul Gandhi’s comments during the campaign in Uttar Pradesh which attracted not just controversy, but sharp criticism. Were they product of immaturity, inexperience or bad advice?
Kapil Sibal: No, it’s neither. I think it’s a product of the fact that in the mode of election, you say a lot of things which are meant in the context in which you say them and, of course, the media has a fun day, sort of misinterpreting them or actually making them into something that’s never meant.
Karan Thapar: Let’s in that case look closely two of the things he said. To begin with, Rahul Gandhi claimed had the Gandhi family been in politics, the Babri Masjid demolition would not have taken place. That not only overlooks the fact that his father Rajiv began the 1989 election in Ayodhya, promising Ram rajya, but it also cast aspersions upon Narashimha Rao, former party president and Prime Minister.
Kapil Sibal: If we look back, forget what Rahul said — when I as a Congress man look back and I look back at the then government — I do feel that we could have perhaps done more in protecting the Babri Masjid. It’s like saying that there is a crime committed and the policemen reach the spot a little late.
Karan Thapar: So, you are saying that the Narashimha Rao government shares some of the culpability for the crime.
Kapil Sibal: No, they may have reached late. May be they did not anticipate the crime. They don’t share any part of the culpability, but sometimes it does happen that the information comes late or you don’t assess the information well enough and so you cannot reach their on time.
Karan Thapar: If this is what was in Rahul Gandhi’s mind, then the problem is that in casting aspersions upon the Narashima Rao government, he was also casting aspersions upon Dr Manmohan Singh, who was the then finance minister.
Kapil Sibal: Not at all. That has never happened and I have explained it to you.
Karan Thapar: He was a part of the government?
Kapil Sibal: I have explained it to you what was meant. That sometimes it does happen that the policemen reach late, not because they share part of the culpability.
Karan Thapar: But one of the policemen who reaches late was, in fact, of the government that included the finance minister.
Kapil Sibal: If you remember, Kalyan Singh assured the Supreme Court that nothing would happen, so maybe the then prime minister believed Kalyan Singh.
Karan Thapar: You can’t accuse Narashimha Rao.
Kapil Sibal: We are not accusing him.
Karan Thapar: Well, Rahul Gandhi seems to have done so.
Kapil Sibal: No, he didn’t. I am sorry. This is again the spin of the media. May I explain this spin? He never said that Narashimha Rao was responsible. In fact, he subsequently held Narashimha Rao in great respect and esteem
Karan Thapar: He may hold him in great respect, but had the Gandhis been in politics…
Kapil Sibal: Let’s be clear. I think his statement was absolutely correct and I will tell you why. At the time when this happened, Ms Gandhi was not in politics.
Karan Thapar: Dr Manmohan Singh was part of the government that reacted late…
Kapil Sibal: When he said if the Gandhi family had been in politics, it was not talking about Dr Manmohan Singh, he was not talking about Narashimha Rao.
Karan Thapar: In what capacity would the Gandhi family be in politics?
Kapil Sibal: May I explain what he meant? At that time, Rahul Gandhi was not in politics, Rajiv Gandhi was no more and Ms Gandhi was not in Congress politics. Therefore, he said had we been in politics, this may not have happened. What’s wrong with it?
Karan Thapar: Quite right, had we been there to steer the government, we would have made sure that the demolition would not have happened, which meant Narashimha Rao was inadequate and, therefore, the government was inadequate and, therefore, the Prime Minister of today was inadequate.
Kapil Sibal: This is your spin. All that he said was had we been there in politics, may be this would not have happened. It’s not blaming Narashimha Rao.
Karan Thapar: Let me take up the spin you are putting on it. Had we been their in politics, this wouldn’t have happened. That clearly suggests that the rest of the Congress doesn’t measured up Gandhi family’s high standards.
Kapil Sibal: That’s your spin. That’s not what it means.
Karan Thapar: It also clearly suggests that without a Gandhi at the top, the party is not a secular.
Kapil Sibal: My dear that’s your spin.
Karan Thapar: That’s the only logical interpretation.
Kapil Sibal: That’s your illogical spin.
Karan Thapar: It’s the only logical interpretation.
Kapil Sibal: It’s the most illogical spin. When you say I may have done it, it does not mean somebody else is to blame.
Karan Thapar: Every single newspaper in the country interpreted it in this way, except for you.
Kapil Sibal: It’s like saying if I have been an advocate in the case, I may have own it. But that does not mean that somebody else pleaded it badly.
Karan Thapar: No, it clearly suggests that the other person didn’t plead it as well…
Kapil Sibal: It is a ‘may’…
Karan Thapar: A ‘may’ in this instance still cast doubt upon Narashimha Rao, it casts doubt upon Manmohan Singh.
Kapil Sibal: Sorry, I do not agree with you, Karan Thapar.
Karan Thapar: All right, let’s then move to the second statement that Rahul made, which attracted controversy and created a lot of criticism for him. He claimed in a vain boast that the Gandhi family had set out to divide Pakistan and succeeded. That not only overlooked the job done by Field Marshal Manekshaw, General Arora, the Indian Army and the Mukti Bahini, but it convinces the Pakistanis that India have been deliberately interfering in that country’s internal affairs.
Kapil Sibal: Quite frankly, again you are blowing it out of context. What he meant was that the liberation struggle that took place and Mrs Gandhi’s firm action at that time has to be applauded. That’s all he meant.
Karan Thapar: That’s not what he said.
Kapil Sibal: That’s exactly what he meant.
Karan Thapar: What he then needs to say what he means rather than saying something else. The young man’s articulation needs to be improved.
Kapil Sibal: In the course of an election, if you heard Kalyan Singh what he said, if you heard Rajnath Singh what he said, you can give any spin to it. The heart of the matter is that this is exactly what he meant. And we all know it - you know it, I know it.
Karan Thapar: I don’t know it. I am pursuing you.
Kapil Sibal: As an intelligent man, you do. And Karan, you are far more intelligent than any of us.
Karan Thapar: That’s a flattering complement.
Kapil Sibal: Let you know it. You are doing it for media, which is fine.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. Not only did Rahul Gandhi make a vain boast that his family holds the sole responsibility for the Partition of Pakistan, but he also claimed credit for the family for Independence, ignoring Mahatma Gandhi.
Kapil Sibal: Again, that’s not true.
Karan Thapar: Can I finish?
Kapil Sibal: Again, that’s not true.
Karan Thapar: He said so.
Kapil Sibal: No, no.
Karan Thapar: He said my family had set out to achieve Independence and did it. There was no mention of Mahatma Gandhi.
Kapil Sibal: Let us be clear. If there is one family in this country, I mean if you look at the Nehru family - Jawaharlal Nehru, Vijaylaxmi Pandit, Krishna Haathi Singh, Indira Gandhi - all went to jail, no exception - Motilal Nehru, Kamla Nehru…
Karan Thapar: What about Mahatma Gandhi? Is it fitting that a young 36-year-old inexperienced MP should put his family before the Father of the Nation?
Kapil Sibal: Again, you are putting a spin on it.
Karan Thapar: How can I put a spin on it? I am quoting him.
Kapil Sibal: You are. He has not talked about Mahatma Gandhi.
Karan Thapar: He should have.
Kapil Sibal: He didn’t say he is not the Father of the Nation.
Karan Thapar: When claiming responsibility for Independence, he shouldn’t have forgotten Mahatma Gandhi.
Kapil Sibal: Your argument is that, in an election when you make a statement about the contribution of the family, you must give historical treaties of contribution of all Congressman from Bal Gangadhar Tilak and HR Gokhle to Mahatma Gandhi and to Abdul Kalam Azad. I am sorry, in an election that doesn’t happen.
Karan Thapar: I am sorry, in an election when you are winning votes, you need to be accurate, precise.
Kapil Sibal: I am sorry, this did not lose Rahul Gandhi any votes, it didn’t lose Congress any votes.
Karan Thapar: It lost him credibility.
Kapil Sibal: On the contrary, it has emerged that Rahul Gandhi has emerged as a credible face of the Congress party in Uttar Pradesh and hopefully in India.
Karan Thapar: That’s what you say. Let me quote to you from The Hindu, the paper that normally supports you.
Kapil Sibal: I’m not going to respond to it.
Karan Thapar: Just hear it.
Kapil Sibal: Okay.
Karan Thapar: In an editorial entitled - The politics of Immaturity - The Hindu writes, “Mr Gandhi’s problems are two-fold: the inability to think beyond the first family and the lack of a cohesive vision.”
Kapil Sibal: I am afraid, I do not agree. This is one family that has a completely cohesive vision. We are the only party that doesn’t do caste politics the way you have seen it in Uttar Pradesh. We are the only party that leads our people under a social engineering umbrella. And I think Rahul Gandhi, Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi, Pandit Nehru served this nation with perhaps the excellence.
Karan Thapar: What about future Gandhis to come in generations ahead. Include them as well - the young Ryan Gandhi.
Kapil Sibal: Oh, absolutely. What, who did you say?
Karan Thapar: Congress may have lost vote share in Uttar Pradesh. They may have failed to win seats. Rahul Gandhi has lost credibility.
Kapil Sibal: I disagree with you entirely. That is your perception.
Karan Thapar: He is seen as an immature, 36-year-old who speaks without knowing, who makes silly boasts.
Kapil Sibal: That’s your line on Devil’s Advocate, Karan. And my line is that it’s completely wrong.
Karan Thapar: You’re saying to me that Rahul Gandhi stands heads and shoulders above anyone else?
Kapil Sibal: Did I say that? He stands as a leader who is going to lead the Congress party in Uttar Pradesh as he has committed.
Karan Thapar: Kapil Sibal, a pleasure talking to you on Devil’s Advocate.
Kapil Sibal: Thank you.
The whole conversation has been picked from some site.
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